I ask you not to put Calvinism above scripture.

Rev 13:8, “And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.”

You will find other versions of the Bible have a different slant on this verse but ALL have to do with the provision of Christ’s sacrifice to atone for us in order to be included in the Book of Life.

Clavinism is but one way to interpret scipture. Nothing wrong with it. But even Calvin saw things as through a mirror dimly.

However, it’s a stretch to use that as a point of argument against election. Your position must be read into the text and is lacking solid support.

Also, the Bible does not say that Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, so that argument is moot.

Again, as I said earlier, a valid position must be congruent and consistent with Scripture. At the end of the day, your position is really a refusal to believe that God’s nature could lead him to elect some and not elect others, rather than based on Scripture.

Good question….

Although not obvious, I think it does. Look at Genesis 1:1, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.”

“Pre-destination” is a term defined and controlled by time. If God’s reality is outside of time then, we need to submit to an undertanding that God knew who would accept Him before He created the heavens and the earth. Remember He is the Alpha and Omega - the beginning and the end.

In His own thoughts, God speaks of being outside of time on a number of occasions. What does it mean to be outside of time? Well there is no yesterday, there is no tomorrow. Everything is “now” - maybe this is why when Moses asked God for His name, God replied, “I Am.” Not “I was” or I “will be” - I just “AM”

Later Jesus is described as “Was and is and Is to come.” “Was”, “Is” “Will Be” is the “I Am” exposed to time. Just like the only man made thing in heaven are the scars of Jesus, the “I Am” is now “was, is and will be”

So you can see that “time” is crucial in this whole equation. The sciptures say that Christ was slain before the foundations of the world and yet He had to enter into time for it to actually occur! Go figure!

So this whole “pre destined” Calvinistic model suffers in it’s simplification of the nature of time. I do not believe in a God who would have hell as the pre destined end point of the vast majority of mankind.

God’s grace is offered to all and it’s His will that all should be saved. But He knows those who will accept and those who will refuse.

In the linearity of time then, those who will accept Christ are pre destined to reach that end point. It’s an awesome fusion of mans free will and God’s provision through Jesus Christ.

Stuart - after reading all that, if you are still keen on catching up, we have the best wine in the world in Australia! I would love to catch up with you one day and talk about how the author of our faith has written your journey out as compared to mine.

And if you’re a Southern Baptist, well then we have some pretty good coffee also.

Thanks for the props. We’ll have to rectify this ‘never met’ thing someday. I’m determined to have coffee with all the regulars that frequent my blog. You may be the farthest away, but it may happen someday. Maybe coffee is better on the other side of the world?

Stuart

I would only suggest a couple of things for your consideration.

1. Does the Bible ever really use any sort of time vs. eternity language in relevance to predestination? I’d be careful to make sure any sort of theory is thoroughly congruent with Scripture.

2. Calvinists don’t deny the free will/responsibility of man. If you meet one who does, then they are avert from the true Reformed perspective. Also, Calvinists emphasize that man is unable in any capacity to use his free will to choose God without His gift of grace.

Later! =)

Pre-destination in my mind gets solved with a proper understanding of time. If you were viewing a street parade as a kid, you would see the whole parade in a continuous flow from the first marchers to the last.

But if you were in a helicopter high above the city, you would see the start of the parade and the end of it at the same time. You would have the Alpha and Omega perspective of the event.

What we have here is another dimension added to the human experience - in this case eternity - a dimension devoid of time.

In God’s reality, He knows who will respond to His message of salvation before he created a star to shine. He knew you and I would accept Christ into our lives before the first star shined. He knew this outside space/time.

The Bible is a document inside space/time and therefore bound to the reality of time. But in God’s mind He knew we would accept Him. In our space/time reality, we are pre destined to accept Him. Time simply has to catch up to our decision.

Calvinists have to understand that God also gives man a degree of sovereignty - aka free will.

I just wanted to stop by and say that I really enjoy your blog. It’s quite thought-provoking. I’m also sincerely curious how modern physics solves the problem of predestination. Sounds very interesting. =)

Seth
http://www.whatum.com
theological satire

Thanks for stopping by. My other site had way too many bugs in the system and when I upgraded to Wordpress 2.2.1, many things stopped working. So the good ol’ K2 machine is what I’m sticking too for the moment.

Thanks for the encouragement.